After Hassan's rape incident and Amir's guilt for not doing anything about it, some thought keeps reappearing in discussion, which bear the questions: Do you betray someone without warning, or do small betrayals lead up to a larger one? How can you redeem yourself after you've betrayed a friend, or is it that once the sin has been committed, you instead have to learn to deal with the repercussions?
Write AT LEAST 8 sentences chronicling your thoughts. Use quotes form the book, your own thoughts, and classroom discussions to fuel your journal response.
Post as a comment to this post. Be sure to include your name, either through the use of your school gmail account or include it in your post. 20 points – Due 12/13/12
Logan Puelz
ReplyDeleteI personally believe that a small betrayal will eventually lead up to a larger one. I think that if you betray someone you will probably do it again in the future. You don't want to betray someone little by little. I think if you are actually going to betray someone you might as well do it all at once and get it over with. Doing it little by little will just make it harder for everyone involved. I do not think that you can redeem yourself after you betray someone. The only way I think that you could redeem yourself is if the person you betrayed also betrayed you later on. Than it would make things even. That still doesn't make things okay though because now you both did something bad and have no way of redeeming themselves. So I think that you would have to learn with the repercussions and have to deal with whatever you did to that other person.
Nicely expressed, Logan. A small betrayal, just like a lie, often leads to a more complex betrayal. 20
DeleteTIMOTHY JONES
ReplyDeleteIt depends, most of the time you betray them without warning. When it comes to redeeming yourself from a betrayal is just depends on how severe it it was. For instance if somebody was betrayed by telling somebody something he wasn't supposed to tell them, then it's not that big of a deal. Though when you betray them by watching the kid get raped it's a totally different deal. So, you could redeem yourself in some instances. Sadly, when it comes to Amir and Hassan there is NO way you can redeem yourself. Amir deserves nothing, and Hassan deserves better. All in all Amir can deal with the repercussions and be alone. Then pretty much everybody else can redeem themselves, as long as the betrayal wasn't too intense. *True Story*
TIMOTHY(NOT TIM) JONES
I agree that some betrayals can never truly be redeemed.
Delete20
I think small betrayals lead up to a big one. Amir and Hassan are really good friends, well used to be. Amir has betrayed Hassan many times. Amir always made Hassan do his dirty work, like shoot a dog with his sling shot and go get his blue kite. Hassan got hurt very bad getting the blue kite but he got it for Amir. While Hassan was getting hurt Amir stood there and watched, he just watched, didn't say stop or what are you doing! Amir just stood there. That is a huge betrayal and I think Amir should confess to Hassan that he was there to redeem himself. If I were Hassan I would never be able to forgive him.
ReplyDeleteOne thing leads to the next...in betrayals, we begin to get more "brave" about the extent. Confession as a way to earn redemption...and the forgiveness is up to the other. 20
DeleteLexia Mormann
ReplyDeleteIn this story I think that small betrayals lead up to larger ones. There are many different incidents in this story so far that have led to this conclusion. When Amir is alone with Hassan he is so nice to him but as soon as there are other people around Amir acts like they aren't friends and doesn't really stick up for him. This really shows when Hassan is getting raped and Amir just stands back and lets it happen. I would definitely say that Amir has betrayed Hassan over time. After you betray a friend you can always TRY to redeem yourself but it is not that easy. There will always be some kind of guilt that you have or that they remember. Once you have committed the sin you will have to learn with the repercussions especially if the person you betrayed is holding a grudge or making it very difficult for you to be forgiven.
Effort seems to be the key to true redemption, as well as willingness to forgive on the other's behalf.
DeleteLindsey LeGrand
ReplyDeleteIt is not good to betray a friend and especially a friend you grew up with. Small betrayals would probably add up to big ones. Getting away with small betrayals they think they could get away with anything and they would just start feeling guilty. To redeem yourself you should tell them what you have done and try to make it up. Some friends may forgive someone, but sometimes it's just to much and you loose your friendship. Amir has really never betrayed him before. He would sometimes say there not friends and say that he is just his servant. Watching him get rapped was a big betrayal he could have said something, but he didn't. He also didn't tell anyone what happened. He just stopped talking to Hassan after that. Hassan probably needed Amir the most and he wasn't there. It was a big betrayal and it lead up from the small betrayals saying that they weren't friends and it lead to the big one of being silent when Hassan needed him.
The awkwardness of talking to someone after one has betrayed him/her almost makes the betrayal worse, doesn't it?
DeleteSamantha
ReplyDeleteI think that small betrayals lead up to a big one. I don't think you should ever betray a friend especially without warning or a reason because that only hurts your friend more. Because the friend would be confused and always think about what they did to deserve to be betrayed. I think that if you betray a friend you will have to live with the repercussions. Because depending on what you did there may not be a way to redeem yourself. What Amir did to Hassan when he was getting raped and after he got raped is probably unforgivable. There isn't a way to say I'm sorry for watching you get rapped and not doing anything about it and I'm sorry for being a jerk afterwards and not trying to make you feel better.
I agree that Hassan would have to have a huge heart to find forgiveness for Amir. We'll have to see how you feel about redemption at the end of the novel. :)
DeleteYou betray someone more in the term of without warning, because in Amir’s case, when he ‘betrayed Hassan’ when he never let him come and play with his friends and only let him play with him when they were alone, it wasn’t his fault. He was raised with the ideas that Hassan was a lesser person and wasn’t taught that that was wrong.
ReplyDeleteOnce you have been betrayed by a friend, you have to deal with the repercussions, because once you lose their trust from betrayal, you never have all of it back, they’ll always be conscious that you will do it again, and wonder if they can really trust you again, even a little.
I agree that society has some part in the betrayal, but ultimately, doesn't one have the ability to consciously choose his/her actions, regardless of the ideas society presents. Trust is a hard quality to regain. What might Amir do to regain the trust?
DeleteBrian Boardman
ReplyDeleteAmir feels a lot of guilt, the thought that keeps reappearing in his head is why didn't i do anything about it. No i wouldn't betray someone without warning. I believe that small betrayals will lead up to a larger one, mainly because the trust is broken, and it will be hard for them to trust each other now. Some ways I can think of redeeming oneself is talking to the person about it and get their point of view. But be prepared if you have to learn to deal with what happened, or if the other person doesn't want to see you anymore, thats if their really angry.
The book would have been a lot shorter had Amir said something during the rape or even if he would have faced his betrayal and acknowledged Hassan in the aftermath. Is Amir selfish for not doing anything? Is this a natural way to respond to such a huge level of betrayal?
DeleteTo me, it just wouldn't feel right to betray someone without telling them. If you were a true friend, you would tell them and try to work out the situation as well as possible. But also, if you keep up little betrayals and keep doing them, they can add up, and trust can be lost between you and that friend. That would be very bad because in my opinion, if it's one quality that a friendship needs it's trust. Redeeming yourself after betraying one of your best friends could possibly be one of the hardest, if not impossible things to do. Sure, you could have a friend that is very understanding, but there's always that little thing in your head that tells you that you did something wrong and you can't redeem yourself for it. No matter how sorry you are or how you try to repay them, nothing will ever seem to turn out alright. Either way, you'll have a guilty conscience. If everything does turn out okay, it'll take a very long time, possibly forever.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your idea that the friend who committed the betrayal will have to experience the guilt, even if the other friend offers forgiveness. The thing with betrayal is we all have a conscience, and clearing that conscience can be one of the most difficult exercises in the world.
DeleteTrevor Palmer
ReplyDeleteYou can Betray someone all at once. Amir betray him before the rape. They were not friends when he got raped. You can talk to him nice and he might be your friend. Hassan got raped and Amir did not help him.
Ok, but what about the feelings Amir is experiencing? Does that show that they were truly friends, even though Amir wouldn't admit it? Or is it just human nature to feel bad for not stopping the rape?
DeletePeople tend to betray people and not even realize that they are doing it. They don't realize till after that they have done something awful. It is nearly close to impossible to redeem yourself after your betray a friend. Unless your able to change what happened, but in Amir's case he can't go back and change what happened to Hassan. Amir in all reality is just as scared from the tragic event in the alley. Amir had to learn the hard way that Hassan was really his best friend he had. He took him for granite and Amir realizes that now. He should of loved Hassan no matter who or what he was and not cared what people thought about it.
ReplyDeleteWe do sometimes betray people without knowing; I think we sometimes get so self-absorbed in our own feelings, we forget that others also have feelings. Sadly, we sometimes live life without considering the repercussions of our actions. What can Amir do now though to correct the situation?
DeleteChris Tuecke 2nd hour 12/12/12
ReplyDeleteYou can betray someone without warning. It might lead up to something bigger. Amir betray him before they were friends. By you and your friend come together to discuss it to maybe to be friends once more. You don't have to live with the repercussions at all.
Even after you talk with a friend about the betrayal, there will likely be some sort of lingering animosity, right? What might Amir have to do to make amends for his betrayal?
DeleteJayna Felder
ReplyDeleteI believe that small betrayals will eventually lead up to a large betrayal. After a large betrayal has been made, it's almost impossible to redeem yourself. Amir now has to live with the guilt of betraying Hassan. Even before the incident, Amir would betray Hassan to get the love he wanted from Baba. He would do anything for Baba's love; even frame Hassan for something he didn't do. During the incident, When Amir ran away, he showed just how much of a coward he really was. Then, after he framed Hassan for stealing his money and new watch, he understood that Ali and Hassan both knew Amir watched and ran away from Hassan. Now, Amir has to go on with his life knowing that a simple action changed his life forever.
It seems Amir just couldn't stop the viscous cycle of betraying. Did guilt drive this, or was it that Amir was so self-absorbed he couldn't face the repercussions of what he allow happen?How might this guilt impact Amir's adult life?
DeleteJesse Moser
ReplyDeleteYou can betray someone without a warning. Small betrayals can lead to big betrayals. Sometimes you CAN redeem yourself, and sometimes you can't. Sometimes, you might have to do the extreme for someone to redeem yourself. There will be repercussions but that's life, I guess. Never had one. Amir has betrayed Hassan so much that all of his little betrayals led up to the big betrayal... the raping. Amir could have stopped it but he was too much of a coward so he watched then he ran away then came back when they were finished with Hassan. All in all, Amir knows that He will be living in a life of guilt if he didn't tell anyone about it, or worse.
While Amir realizes he will feel this guilt, he does nothing to earn the redemption. Is this fair?
DeleteI believe that all of the little betrayals lead up to one big betrayal. Amir had always let Hassan take the blame for everything that he did wrong. Also, when Assef was going to hurt Amir, Hassan stepped in and stood up for both of them. He also never admitted that Hassan was his friend, and whenever other kids were around to play with, he always left Hassan out. Then, when Assef was raping Hassan, Amir didn't do anything except watch because he didn't want to admit that Hassan was his friend and he was afraid of getting hurt. Even afterwards, he was mean to him and threw pomegranates at him when they walked up the hill and Amir was supposed to read to him. I also think that after you have betrayed someone as badly as Amir did, you should learn to deal with the repercussions. Nothing will be able to fix what happened.
ReplyDeleteWhile he learns to deal with the repercussions, is it OK to just ignore Hassan or to subject him to even more pain and humiliation? Are they now two separate entities? Or does Amir need something from Hassan in order to move forward?
DeleteJJ Gerner
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion I think that smaller betrayals lead up to a big betrayal. I think this because in the Kite Runner, Amir did small smaller things like not claiming him as his friend. This lead up to Amir not doing anything during the rape. The only way of being forgiven in my opinion is to work every day to prove that you are friends with them. You would need to make sure that you understand that you made a mistake and that you would do anything to protect that from happening again. But if you did the small things to prove that and you can't follow through if something big happens again than do not give them false hope and just apologize and leave. I've been taught that when you say sorry that mean you won't do it again. If you don't think you can help them when they really need it then just deal with the guilt.
Awesome! If you can't help the person, at least don't do them further harm! One of my rules from the beginning of the year. I agree wholeheartedly. The person committing the offense needs to do some soul-searching do decide whether or not he can move forward without re-breaking the trust. If not, I think you're right. It is probably best to just go the separate ways without any further complication.
Deletei think that there were small betrayals and they end with one big betrayal. amir said they were friends to Hassan. but to others he would not tell anyone else and when baba wanted to take him and Hassan to somewhere he said no Hassan is sick when he was not. it would very hard for you to redeem yourself after Hassan got raped in the butt. you can't undo a rapping. Hassan and Hassan's father both knew about amir seeing Hassan being raped and he ran away.
ReplyDeleteBoth Hassan and Ali did know, but did it prevent them from offering forgiveness? Remember Ali even tried to get Amir to talk about what he'd seen, but Amir refused. I think they tried to give him chances to find forgiveness, but Amir was too self-absorbed to even try.
DeleteJessica Greve
ReplyDeleteYou can betray somebody without even knowing. If you did or not because Hassan was stealing things and Amir had ran away from his problem. So yes it is easy to betray somebody with out even knowing. Plus the more you betray someone the more it gets worst and more of peoples life is at risk of getting hurt.
I am confused by your response. Hassan wasn't stealing anything? But, yes, I do think the more you betray, the easier it becomes, which likely makes it more frequent.
DeleteI truly believe that people cannot betray someone all in one shot. I think that betrayal happens in small steps, that eventually leads up to a betrayal that is huge. I feel as if there is nothing you can do to gain someones trust back after you betray them. Its all in their hands, you can be as nice to them as you could possibly be. But they still may not trust you again. It all depends on how big the betrayal is. I think that the only way you redeem yourself after betraying someone is to deal with the repercussions, its all in their hands now. The guilt that you have to live with is just as heavy as knowing the person you betrayed does not trust you anymore.
ReplyDeleteI agree that the indifference you may experience from the person who was once your friend is more than likely worse than the guilt. When does the other person (the one who was betrayed) have to decide whether to offer forgiveness? Or is there no time limit? At what point does it stop mattering?
DeleteI believe that many small betrayals lead to a big one. in amirs case all the small things he does to betray Hassan leads up to him being betrayed very badly. It is not a good thing for a friend to betray another friend no matter what. the fact that amir watched Hassan get raped is horrible. amirs other small betrayals are like when he doesn't want his father to get Hassan nice things. small betrayals seem like they mean nothing when you do them. the small betrayals can sometimes hurt your friends the most however. If amir really saw Hassan as his friend he would have never betrayed him at all. he especially wouldn't have let him get raped while he stood and watched.
ReplyDeleteI think the series of small betrayals shows just how much one was willing to put on the line in regards to the friendship, which is likely why these can be the most painful.
DeleteKyle Funk
ReplyDeleteAmir has not been a very good friend to Hassan. I think that it will be nearly impossible to make up for what Amir has done to Hassan.Hassan has always stood up for Amir and Amir has not done anything in return. Whenever Hassan has been in danger Amir always turns away and runs. If I was Hassan I would not be able to ever forgive Amir for what he has done. With all this said I believe that small betrayals lead to bigger betrayals. All the small betrayals that have been made by Amir a much larger one has occurred. Amir has made this large mistake and I believe he will never be trusted by Hassan again.
Ok, trust is gone. But how will Amir move forward? Does he actually need Hassan to clear his conscience? Or can he make amends without Hassan?
DeleteCory Preston
ReplyDeleteI think that small betrayals lead up to a larger betrayal over time. In the book, there were been many instances that took place before the rape scene that showed betrayal. Amir is jealous of Baba's feelings towards Hassan, and he wishes Baba would focus only on him. Instead, Baba treats both Amir and Hassan as if they were both his kids. The first time Amir and Hassan run into Assef, Amir doesn't admit that Hassan is his friend. Then, when they go kite shopping, Amir doesn't want Baba to spend as much money on Hassan, but Baba does anyway. Those are just to examples of many that show small betrayals from Amir to Hassan. Also, after the rape scene, Amir continues to betray Hassan. He ignores him, and blocks him out of his life as if he never existed. Then when they're in the tree, he takes out all his anger and guilt on Hassan by throwing pomegranates at him, and Hassan does nothing to fight back. With the way things are going, I think it's safe to say this "friendship" is rapidly beginning to fall apart.
And without the friendship, is there anyway for Amir to clear his conscience? Can he "be good again" as Rahim Khan suggests?
DeleteYou don't necessarily betray someone without warning, when you betray someone you know exactly what you are doing. As for small betrayals leading up to a huge betrayal, no one really pinpoints each betrayal they have committed, most can be innocent to where you don't know you're really betraying them . For example when Amir would get mad because Baba would buy things also for Hassan it was coming from jealously not that Amir really wanted to hurt him. Inside he was mad at Baba, but he saw it as being mad at Hassan. There is a way to redeem yourself if it gets to a point where events around you start to crumble. If Amir would of taken the time to talk with Hassan and listen to him Hassan would of told Amir what had happened. Instead Amir ignored it and let the fear inside consume him to the point he would get angry and lash out on Hassan when Hassan tried to re-kindle things between them. If Amir would of had the courage to talk with Hassan things could of turned out different than it had.
ReplyDeleteSo if Amir recognized he was a coward as he ran away from Hassan being raped, why would he continue to run now? Doesn't that further exemplify him as a coward? If he is ignorant of the guilt, can he ever find redemption form his sins?
DeleteIn my mind I believe that you should not betray someone you have been friends with basically your whole life. Amir has betrayed Hassan many times in this story. For example in the story Amir watched Hassan get raped. Amir just stands back and watching the gross scene. So I believe in this story all these small betrayals are going to lead up into a larger one. I don't think you can redeem yourself after being betrayed. You just have to move on and make some new dude friends and learn to deal with the repercussions.
ReplyDeleteSo a betrayal is the final breaking point? What of the relationship is lost when a betrayal takes place? Does it depend on the level of the betrayal, or is one just as bad as another?
DeleteBrianna Achenbach
ReplyDeleteWhen you betray or lie to a friend they will get mad, it just depends on how bad it was. Something small they will be more willing to forgive you unlike if it was something big. I fell Amir betrayed Hassan more then this one time. He did not want to admit that he was friends with Hassan because he was a lower class person. He felt that Baba did not love him as a son or anything. Amir would do anything to get that from Baba. After the incident in the ally Amir was feeling a lot of gilt. He could not see Hassan with out the thoughts of him in the ally. All Amir really wanted was to be loved by Baba and not the right son that he wanted. Amir personality in the book has changed at this point, he is a cowered because he ran away and did not even help his friend against the bullies with the brass knuckles. Amir would always frame and blame everything on Hassan. Betrayal is very hard to get back from a friend, because they are mad at you for that you did to them. When you do betray a friend you are the one that has to deal with the outcome.
I agree that we are at the friend's mercy when we look for forgiveness. But, is there anything we can do to encourage it? What about Amir's actions of simply ignoring Hassan? How do we discern which level of betrayal one has committed? Is there some unspoken rule?
DeleteI think that when you betray someone it all leads up to one big betrayal. When you feel like betraying someone there is something that holds you back inside from doing whats right weather its friends, family, or even strangers. When Amir betrays Hassan he has the feeling that if he sticks up for his friend that all of the community will look down at him for admitting he is friends with Hassan. Amir feels a lot of guilt for doing this and feels really bad for not stopping it but just turns his shoulder on the situation. The right thing to do after this is to redeem yourself for not helping your friend out. It will be really hard to earn the respect back from your friend but it should be hard for your betrayal. Betrayal should be a one time thing after that big one happens because you will learn that it has gone way to far. Amir should gain Hassan's trust back and keep it without betraying him again.
ReplyDeleteHe went against what he knew was the right thing to do, mostly because he was worried about perception. He also let someone he loved be in pain because of his selfish nature.
Deleteyou can betray someone without warning, but once you betray them the guilt usually sets in. Amir betrayed his friendship with Hassan many times. Whether it is just little things like blaming things on Hassan. Also when Hassan takes the blame for little things it makes it easier for Amir to feel little guilt when he betrays Hassan. This, in my eyes could lead to Amir letting a more serious betrayal occur, which happens in the rape scene. That makes me think that Amir just has no respect for Hassan but he is feels some guilt so it shows that even though he betrays Hassan repeatedly, he still has some connection with him. It shows that he feel remorse when he is sitting in bed and says aloud, "I watched Hassan get raped" wishing for someone to hear so he doesn't have to deal with it alone. There is ways that Amir can redeem himself, but it would take a big sacrifice for me to be able to accept someone after being betrayed so many times like Hassan.
ReplyDeleteSometimes we cause the most pain to those we love the most? How can we justify this? Is redemption easier to receive this way?
DeleteI think that you would start with small betrayals, weather you think of them as that or not, then you work up to an ultimate betrayal. You wouldn’t go right in to the big betrayal being unsure, you want to test it out and see how brave you are about it and build confidence and momentum. I feel like the only way you could ultimately betray a friend or family member, without little betrayals first, is if you really don’t care about them, or are ashamed of them. You could redeem yourself, but both people have to be willing to make it better. It took two people to create the betrayal and it has to take two to redeem it. If only one person wants to make it better then it wont get better. Lets say the betrayer wont apologies and admit they were wrong, they will be upset at the accusations and the victim will still be hurt by what they did. If the victim wont accept the apology the betrayer might be hurt about it and it shows that the victim is still upset over it. In The Kite Runner a few little ways that Amir betrayed Hasan and their friendship was when he was reading to him under the pomegranate tree and Hasan would ask what words meant and Amir would tell him the opposite to make him look dumb, and when he abandon the book he was reading and substituted it for his own story. Amir betrayed Hasan every time he didn’t admit they were friends, or that Hasan felt like his brother, and when Baba would want to include Hasan and Amir got jealous and wanted it to be just him and Baba.
ReplyDeleteYou've touched on an important aspect...only when we are cold and uncaring can we purposefully cause a significant amount of pain to those we love. Amir's jealousy seems to have uprooted the "friendship" first, with his shame doing the rest of the damage.
DeleteZach Wolter
ReplyDeleteI think that small betrayals will lead up to one large betrayal. I know if i were Amir i could not sit there and watch what happened to my friend without putting and end to it. Amir has not been a very good friend to Hassan at all in my opinion. Always making Hassan defend him in front of danger. Trying to redeem your self after a huge betrayal can be one of the hardest things to overcome in life. Even if your friend forgives you and acts like nothing ever happened, you will still always have that feeling in the back of your mind. The feeling that you betrayed someone is extremely hard to cope with. I believe that the friendship between Amir and Hassan has taken a turn for the worst.
So the guilt is more of a repercussion than the scorn you may receive from the betrayed? How can we rid ourselves of guilt? How do you think Amir might?
DeleteNick Hefel,
ReplyDeleteI believe if you betray someone, you are not a good friend to have. Even if you do little betrayals at a time your going to keep doing them thinking your friend won't care. The more you cause the bigger the problem you will face in the future. Once you decide to make these decisions its kind of hard to redeem yourself unless you have this friend has been your friend your entire life. You might have that one friend that might let it pass and you can keep going on with life. It is all up to your friend to decide if they can trust you again though so don't think your going to get off the hook that easy.
With betrayal comes deception...why would one want to purposefully hurt his/her friend or family? What do you think could drive someone to create such a burden on his/her family/friends and their relationship?
DeleteI think it all starts with small betrayals. If someone is your friend, I don’t think they would be able to do a huge betrayal all of a sudden. I believe that, even if the person isn’t conscious of it, does small betrayals within the friendship before doing a bigger betrayal. I think it depends on what the person did to betray me, in order to ask for redemption. I have had people in my life that have betrayed me so badly, there is no redemption for them. However, the smaller ones are easier to fix. I think what Amir did was unacceptable. He watched his best friend, practically brother, get raped. He didn’t tell anyone about it. He didn’t see if Hassan was okay. Not sticking up for Hassan during that time whether it was during or after was the worst betrayal a friend could do. Amir feels guilty, which he should. I feel like his insomnia and other repercussions he is experiencing is deserved.
ReplyDeleteConsciousness seems to play a role in whether we could cause harm. Does that also apply to the level of guilt Amir has to suffer with? Are the levels of guilt and the repercussions always proportionate with the crime?
DeleteKe'Andre Lee Armstrong
ReplyDeleteI believe that you do not betray your friends. If you betray someone that wouldn't be your friend, you don't betray your friends. If someone does little tiny betrayals. Then I personally believe it will led to a very big betrayal. After a tiny betrayal it would be easier to redeem oneself. The bigger betrayals are a lot harder to redeem yourself. It all comes down to how big the betrayal was, some are not redeemable and will have to deal with repercussions. I believe that Hassan if is back will take Amir back but we will have to see.
What level of betrayal was Amir's betrayal of Hassan in the alley? How could one ever move past this: either Hassan or Amir?
Delete